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This is not about Apostasy!

06 April, 2006

By Ahmer Muzammil


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Allah swt Says in Quran 'If they turn away from thee (O Muhammad) they should know that We have not sent you to be their keeper. Your only duty is to convey My message.' (42:48. ). Thank heavens that the Afghan Courts didn't do anything stupid and let that man go free. I am in complete agreement with the rest of the 'CIVILIZED WORLD' that there was no ground on which this man should have been punished 'TODAY' in the COUNTRY OF AFGHANISTAN. Why do I have 'TODAY' in caps and quotes? Because there is a basic point that everyone is conveniently missing. That point is that 'TODAY' it is not against the Afghanistan's law of the land to apostate. Who is to say tomorrow it would be the same? And why stop at Afghanistan, take any country in the world, there laws can be changed according to the wish of the majority of the people who occupy that particular land. And that is my basic point of contention with the so called 'Western Democracies'. In their narcissistic point of view there morals, rituals, laws and principles are common-sense and universal, therefore should be adhered and followed by every single breathing human being all over the world. Please understand that personally I don't agree with the religious doctrine of Ahmedi-Nijad and his world view, that's why I am not planning to move to Iran anytime soon. To me personally western democracies and there laws make more sense that's why I live here. But at the same time I also respect the voice of majority of Iranian public who has given their mandate to this man. If we keep on insisting that we have the ultimate wisdom and therefore our say supersedes majority then that's just a tad self-serving in my opinion, which creates resentment in the rest of the world.

     This debate is not about Islamic Laws, this debate should be about the wishes and aspirations of the majority of any country. Whether the majority of any country wishes to be governed by Secularist, imperialist, capitalist, communist or Islamist, it should be the prerogative of the people of a particular country. I mean isn't that the definition of that famous bird 'DEMOCRACY' that everyone seems to love so much. The thing that I find amusing is that we as human beings can be so openly duplicitous. On one hand we are willing to kill more than a 100,000 human beings just so we can give the gift of democracy to the relatives of those 100,000 killed, on the other hand when people in Palestine express their wishes thru vote, we are not too hot about that, because we only like democracy when the winners are our puppets. Basically what it boils down to is that, when we say democracy for a third world country we don't really mean the type of democracy that we have here in west, what we are really saying is that let us tell you who and what is good for you, because you are too stupid to make that decision on your own. And then we wonder innocently, 'Why does Muslims Hate Us so much?'. Well maybe we should stop killing these Muslims, and just maybe we should stop supporting tyrants and corrupt kings in these Muslim countries, and while we are on a streak lets also stop stealing their natural resources and then just maybe these 'MOSLEMS' will stop hating us, it's just a theory but it just might work.

      Going back to the initial topic of discussion which is whether we as citizens or residents of a particular country should have to follow the law of the land. My understanding and submission is YES, we should and if we can't whether it's for religious reasons or moral reasons or whatever then we should move and live somewhere where we are comfortable and we don't have a philosophical clash with the law of the land. We all should be law-abiding citizens of our respective countries; I think that goes without saying.

   Now if we agree that we should obey and respect the law of the land then just for the sake of the argument let's say tomorrow American Congress passes a law that all men who keep their beards will be sentenced to death, because that is what the majority of Americans want, they don't want any facial hair anymore. Well if it becomes the law of the land and I for whatever reason can't shave my beard because either I am a sikh or because my understanding of religion finds it incumbent upon me to keep a beard, or I am trying to hide my acne. Whatever it maybe the logical dispensation would be to move somewhere else where beards are welcomed, or at least allowed. This beard example is an extreme, it sounds stupid, but in democracy, it's the wish of the majority, not the wish of smart people only. Besides what's stupid to me might not be so stupid to someone else. E.g. in Bombay as in most of India you won't be able to find beef, because in India Cow is worshiped as a GOD by a vast majority and understandably they don't want people eating their GOD. So if that's your poison you probably don't want to live in India.

   My religion Islam forces me to follow the law of the land especially if I live in a non-Muslim majority country. If any of those laws are against the basic tenants of Islam then I have stringent instructions from Islam to migrate, defiance or breaking the law is a big NO NO. I told a congregation of Muslims once in USA that if tomorrow US congress bans SALAH (5 daily prayers) then we can't violently revolt against it, because Islam forbids us to do that. Some people there thought I was saying that Salah would not be FARD (COMPULSORY) if that happened, quite the contrary, SALAH would still be FARD, you just would have to get out of your comfort zone and move somewhere else. Plain and simple, we would have to migrate to lands where we can pray.

   With the same token, if you live in a country that is governed by Islamic Law (by the way there is no country that is fully governed by Islamic Law in the world), then you might not want to apostate. You can live as a Christian but if you are a Muslim then you might not want to convert while your are still living in that country, because IT'S AGAINST THE LAW OF THE LAND. If all of a sudden you have had an epiphany and want to become Christian then instead of breaking the law and mocking the system and therefore creating anarchy, it would be wise if you move out of that land and then do whatever your little heart desire. How is this any different from having the respect of law of any other country? Who are you to tell a group of people what laws they should govern themselves with? And if you do feel compelled because you have some kind of super-intelligence and everyone else is just too dumb, then don't beat the drum of democracy.

  I have said it many a times that it doesn't take a genius to figure out why there is animosity against Americans in the third world countries, especially the Muslim world. They don't hate our freedoms, what kind of a moronic reason is that to hate anyway? We need to stop living in the lala land and analyze sincerely the root cause of this rift. But our administration and the bigots are allergic with this word 'ROOT CAUSE'. 'Since we have the metal on our side right now, let's roll them flat!' This schoolyard bully mentality was the primary reason for our adventures in the near past and heavens-forbid if we don't wise up, will be catastrophically destructive in future.

  Let's start minding our own business for starters. If we are truly the champions of democracy then let's engage the popular leadership of the third world countries rather than Kings, and military dictators. Running AD campaigns on Arabic channels about how great America is towards Muslims is rubbing salt on the wound. Masses are much smarter and politically savvy than we give them credit for. They are not going to sway and start dancing like monkeys on a well made AD campaign by Karen Hughes, that's an insult to their intellect, and I hear that sentiment all day long by the intellectuals who are considered mostly liberal in these Muslim countries on different TV channels.

  I am proud to be an American, that's why I have chosen this land to raise my family. That's why I am worried about the reputation of my country. I ask questions and point out the flaws because I care and because I have a stake. We need to understand that America is a success because of the hard work and tolerance that American people are famous for. It is this tolerance and the opportunity to succeed regardless of their race, creed or religion that attracts people here from all over the world. We have always welcomed the individuality and cultures of different people, and that's why we are a great nation. If the American-forefathers had insisted that everyone be 'WHITE' (like many of our bigots are calling for right now) once they arrive on the shores of America, I assure you we wouldn't have been the success story that we are today.

End.

Reader Comments:

Agreed

Agreed. When I waws young, there used to be minor Shia-Sunni troubles every year in Lucknow on Muharram. It is gone now because people have matured. Same way the whole country will Inshaallah come out of these troubles with the help of free media, democracy and better understanding. This site is doing a good job for Pak and I hope the rest of the Pak media will work in that direction. It is needed in both the countries and perhaps the whole world.

Dayal, Hungary - 17 April, 2006

Truth About Habib Johnson

Dear All,

I refrained from tellin everyone the sad truth about Mr. habib Johnson's conversion from Islam, but since he insists on his stupidity and i believe he is getting encouraged by the silence of those who know the real story of his conversion, i have chosen now to bring his moral bankcruptcy in public.

Mr. habib Johnson was a small time crook in pakistan, his real name is Habib-ullah Jan. He was a petty thief and was having a hard time making ends meet. Some how he ran in to the missionaries who visit muslim countries and lure poor people with visas of americas and europe if someone is willing to convert to christianity. For people like Habib, religion is nothing more than a name that there parents gave them, the only religion they know and understand is money. To make a long story short, this was a lifetime opportunity, Mr. Habib didnt have means or the reason to travel from one neighbourhood to another in his city, and here he was getting a free ride and immigration to america at the cost of the religion that he didnt practice nor had the bear minimum decency that is required to understand or practice any religion.

So he was off to america, the church that sponsored him helped him get a job at burger king where he flipped burgers for living for a long time, and now as part of the deal he maligns Islam on every forum where he can.

Thats how he came to america and thats how he'll stay in america by maligning the religion of his forefathers. He is new to the language of english so you can understand if he completly misses a point. As it;s obvious that he ranted about the statement that author made about banning beard.

A seventh grader can undrestand that the author is merely illustrating this as an example, nowhere did he say what he would do if this was the case. Even if the author chooses to migrate if a certain law of the land is against his morals or religion, than its on principle. But see principles are foreign concepts that people like Mr. Habib don't understand nor would they because principles are not a sellable commodity. Then he goes on threatning the author with "CIA". Again dear mr. "johnson", there are a lot of people who speak the truth and stand up for justice and against oppresion regardless of consequences. Mr. "Johnson", you won't get it because you have already sold your sole to the devil.

Ozaifa, Pakistan - 17 April, 2006

to be religious is a crime

Hi “Edgar” I tell you a truth. Religion doesn't mean of praying, it means of FOLLOWING. Educated people know this well and this is the main reason of all the arguments. This “superstitious religious belief” is no more than the “intellectual religious violence” which is the main reason of physical violence related to any religious crime, including political and terrorist all. This is the type violence, which is very very dangerous as it has its own reasons, and can justify itself.

I may suggest some solutions. in all the countries, religious publicity would be banned. No one would be even allowed to show his religious feeling on public. No one would be allowed to even show any religious sign on his or her neck regardless any religion. A type of environment would be made where having religion would be a sign of illiteracy and would show something like that man is a very wrong man as he follow religion. If someone want to do pray, go home and do 20 times pray a day but not on public place.

But yes people would have faith in god which is must. But religion, ……………. This is a crime mit. I feel to be religious is a crime against world society. We gotto identify the enemies of our society and punish them otherwise this disease which has already been spread in the whole world, will destroy all human beings.

thanks


s tiwari, Hungary - 18 April, 2006

What a lot of cobblers

As an eighty year old lifelong Atheist I diverge from your article only on that score.That blind religious fanatics can put so many bigotted interpretations to suit their own particular warped beliefs I find astounding. It also reinforces my belief that there is no hope until superstitious (Religious) beliefs disappear. I know this is not going to happen so why don't you all go ahead and do what you have been doing for the past five thousand years. Top those who believe in different Gods. Or at least be motivated into doing just that by using religion as a driving force or as an excuse to impose your will. Either scientifically prove there is a God(s). Or admit the whole thing is a manufactured scenario to dupe the ignorant
to gain power over the majority. But stop trying to enforce beliefs on others and penalising those who decide that they have found a better or different interpretation of life. tomedgar@halenet.com.au Tom Edgar Q4381 Australia.

tom edgar, Aruba - 18 April, 2006

Indian Tiwari,

Watch out Tiwari, You are not in Bajrangdal Forum. If you desire to eliminate religion go break your own idols. I am a Muslim and Islam is not private thing but way of life. Do you understand what way of life means. If you don't give me your email I will explain you in detailed. Watch out for you what you are saying it is small world.

Noor, Hungary - 20 April, 2006

Tom Edgar

Tom Edgar,

I will call you a fanatic atheist and you trying to push your crap on others. No body is trying to push you on something.

amin, United Kingdom - 20 April, 2006

Apostasy

I read this article with great interest. The writer might have already got few calls from crazy mullahs for speaking in favor of apostasy. I appreciate his concern for his land, the USA.

But there are few points that didn't make sense to me. He gives example of keeping beard as a crime. I know that is merely an imaginary example. But that doesn't fit here, reason being, civillized societies are not known to take such crazy decisions. Can you pull up examples from well functioning democracies which came up with ideas that take extreme and unwanted decisions?

Secondly, the writer forcefully states that the USA controls the leaders of all these islamic countries. I would wonder that if USA controls those leaders then why those countries are run more or less on sharia laws. My individual feeling is that at the most, USA has little control over the rulers of such countries and control is limited to economic matters, not religious matters.

Finally, the example stated about Hindus worshipping cow as God sounds flawed to me. How many times have you seen a hindu really worshipping cow in place of God? Cow is considered to be sacred animal and thats why there is a ban on its killing.

If you wanted, you could have also pulled up example of ban on eating pork. Since you are already a muslim, you are well aware of pork thing and less aware of cow thing, so you could have made more sense.

However, in general, it was a good article since now I see muslims daring to speak up against interests of crazy mullahs.

Thanks

NS, United Kingdom - 20 April, 2006

Fanaticism. Oh No.

Noor/Amin. Oh dear and you call me a fanatic. Married 46 years to a Quaker Christian.
My closest friends were (departed) a Fundamentalist Christian Minister and an Islamic Imam. Unlike Noor I don't give veiled threats to those with whom I,philosophically, disagree.
Unlike every religion on earth I can't recall any Atheist going to war to impose their particular beliefs. Humans have been on this earth, as far as we can ascertain, for 50,000 years.
Religion has been around for the final 10% of that time.
Nobody has seen, smelt, touched any of the Gods. From Ra to the Mexican Sun God Xoctacepetl. Jehovah, Allah,
No one in their right mind has had a conversation with a God and yet the gullible invoke this imaginary deity whenever they wish to impose their will. We now see a crazy religious zealot who imagines he is the instrument of Armageddon foretold in his Christian Bible. So by "God" he is going to Nuke the rest of you regardless of your beliefs. Come on I don't belong with you lot. Fight amongst yourselves but leave me out. Amin you sound like a latter day reincarnation of the notorious Senator McCarthy
Conform or be declared Un American, or is that un-Human?

Before you begin to condemn the secularists remember this country Australia (Americaa's ally) Has had as its leader,in the past, Jew, Atheists, Agnostics, and the present incumbent a Protestant who has as his deputy a Fundamentalist Christian. I would add that the last two,in the opinion of many besides myself, are amongst the worst we have ever had. Oh I never hide behind unaddressed psuedonyms.

Tom Edgar Glen Aplin Q4381 Australia. tomedgar@halenet.com.au

Tom Edgar, Aruba - 21 April, 2006

to "tom edgar"

hi tom if someone will ask me which comment i ever like the best on this web-site then i must say it is your last comment. i believe this type of thinking can belong to only highly educated and to a man of high morale. i have got respect for your way of thinking. please dont think about man like Amin. i culd also respond him in proper way for making comment on you but i didnt do becoz i think Amin dont deserve for even any response.

Thanks and regards

s tiwari, Hungary - 21 April, 2006

I think Jesus would dig this

Remember 911
Minding our business creates 911's.
Ahmer, what an instigator you are. HaHa! Are you trying to get all your readers to move to America? Yes it's your opinion. Are you losing faith in Islam? God, as we perceive him/her/it, does not force us, it is a choice. Just like the choice whether or not to cut someones head off. If your nuts/terrorist, you cut heads off or blow yourself up. It's a cop-out friend. I pray people who read this live peacefull. Such that a man can take his family for a walk downtown on a sunny day. Right now.
By the way, were you drunk when you wrote "who occupy that particular land. And that is my basic point of contention with the so called 'Western Democracies'. In their narcissistic point of view there morals, rituals, laws and principles are common-sense and universal, therefore should be adhered and followed by every single breathing human being all over the world."? What a hyprocit compared to your last paragraph.

Gordon Lightfoot, United Kingdom - 25 April, 2006

Will imposition

As a P.S. to my previous submission, and in particular as a refutation to "Amin"

This site is supposed to be about apostasy. When I see even the word I know that this is aboput imposing upon others. If people cannot cannot change their opinions or beliefs without fear of recrimination then this is an imposition or in the more simplistic terminology of Amin "Push" I don't try to make others believe my philosophical approach and if they wish to change to my way, or my fellow skeptics embrace an ideology I find ridiculous I would still, if they wish, call them friends. I certainly wouldn't advocate cessation of life because they exercised their free will. In the Sudan Muslims "Push" their beliefs on the the "Unbelievers"
Can you imagine the promotion or employment prospects of an "Unbeliever" in Saudi Arabia or, for that matter, the same reversed situation in the Bible Belt of the southern states of the U S A.
There are many ways of "Pushing." or coercion.
Conform or else starve seems to be the same to me regardless of geographic position, ethnic background or religious persuasion.
So Amin when you attack the messenger because you cannot refute the message you are attempting to push your own ideology without the slightest attempt to justify the reasons why you think you have that right. I've told you why I am an Atheist. I have never seen scientific evidence to believe otherwise.
If you are able to offer such evidence, something my Muslim and Christian friends have never been able to show. I will give it my considered opinion. Don't ask me to prove there is no God. I cannot prove the existence of nothing but I will still not insist on retribution for those who take up religion and I think, sincerely, that you don't have the right to say.
"If you change your beliefs you must die."
And as I always do. No hiding.
Tom Edgar. Glen Aplin. Queensland Australia.
tomedgar@halenet.com.au

Tom Edgar, Aruba - 27 April, 2006

Silence??

Well I have returned after a long absence. I am shocked. Not a single addition to this debate.

I am now thinking,once again, that all these "Learned" religious zealots found my arguments unanswerable.

Very unsatisfying. I do like to see good clear, if contrary thinking. So have you all gone back to your prayer beads for sustenance? Not being able to refute an argument means your own is wrong, so if this is so, come join the many societies of Skeptics and Unbelievers. Could put you in with enlightened "Thinkers." Tom Edgar Australia. tomedgar@halenet.com.au

Tom Edgar, Aruba - 19 October, 2006

P S To Amin

I visited the site again just to verify that I seemed to have won
by a fall, Sorry old time wrestler's inerpretation of a win. I noticed that Amin, in a threatening tone, said he would debate and convert Allen Smith, who it seems hadn't changed the Pakistan sign that automatically pops up if he only supplied his E. mail address, something Amin doesn't do himself. check mine I have done so . Amin never contacted me and for some obscure, to me, reason most people write anonymously. I find debate both enlightening and stimulating, well when it is delivered with educated reasoning and without animosity. I truly believe in the wise words. "I disagree with everything you say but will fight to the death for your right to say them," Tom Edgar Australia.

Tom Edgar Australia, Aruba - 23 October, 2006

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